@prologic@twtxt.net, there is a parser bug on parent. Specifically on this portion:
"*If twtxt/Yarn was to grow bigger, then this would become a concern again. *But even Mastodon allows editing*, so how
+much of a problem can it really be? đ
*"
@movq@www.uninformativ.de going a little sideways on this, â*If twtxt/Yarn was to grow bigger, then this would become a concern again. But even Mastodon allows editing, so how much of a problem can it really be? đ *â, wouldnât it preparing for a potential (even if very, very, veeeeery remote) growth be a good thing? Mastodon signs all messages, keeps a history of edits, and it doesnât break threads. It isnât a problem there.đ It is here.
I think keeping hashes is a must. If anything for that âfeels goodâ feeling.
@movq@www.uninformativ.de Agreed that hashes have a benefit. I came up with a similar example where when I twted about an 11-character hash collision. Perhaps hashes could be made optional somehow. Like, you could use the âreplytoâ idea and then additionally put a hash somewhere if you want to lock in which version of the twt you are replying to.
Hey, @movq@www.uninformativ.de, a tiny thing to add to jenny, a -v switch. That way when you twtxt âThatâs an older format that was used before jenny version v23.04â, I can go and run jenny -v, and âduh!â myself on the way to a git pull. :-D
@movq@www.uninformativ.de ooooh, nice! commit 62a2b7735749f2ff3c9306dd984ad28f853595c5:
Crawl archived feeds in âfetch-context
Like, very much! :-)
@movq@www.uninformativ.de to paraphrase US Presidents speech on each State of the Union, âthe State of the Jenny is strong!â :-D As for the potential upcoming changes, there has to be a knowledgeable head honcho that will agglomerate and coalesce, and guide onto the direction that will be taken. All that with the strong input from the developers that will be implementing the changes, and a lesser (but not less valuable) input from users.
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org I call upon the services of the @yarn_police@twtxt.net to further investigate this oddness!
@quark@ferengi.one Oh, sure, it would be nice if edits didnât break threads. I was just pondering the circumstances under which I get annoyed about data being irrecoverably deleted or otherwise lost.
@falsifian@www.falsifian.org âI donât really mind if the twt gets edited before I even fetch it.â, right, thatâs never the problem. Editing a twtxt before anyone fetches it isnât even editing, right? :-P The problem we are trying to fix is the havoc is causes editing twtxts that have already been replied to, often ad nauseam. Thatâs the real problem.
@quark@ferengi.one I donât really mind if the twt gets edited before I even fetch it. I think itâs the idea of my computer discarding old versions itâs fetched, especially if itâs shown them to me, that bugs me.
But I do like @movq@www.uninformativ.deâs suggestion on this thread that feeds could contain both the original and the edited twt. I guess it would be up to the author.
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org now, how am I not surprised at that reply?! Hahahahaha!
@falsifian@www.falsifian.org that would be problematic to do on a fully decentralised system. I am not disagreeing, though. Thatâs the reason I have stopped editing twtxts. I strive to own mistakes, as minor as they might be. Now, if trail editing can be accomplished, I am all for it!
@quark@ferengi.one None. I like being able to see edit history for the same reason.
@falsifian@www.falsifian.org what would the difference be between an edit the changes everything on the original twtxt, and a delete?
@prologic@twtxt.net Why sha1 in particular? There are known attacks on it. sha256 seems pretty widely supported if youâre worried about support.
@prologic@twtxt.net I wouldnât want my client to honour delete requests. I like my computerâs memory to be better than mine, not worse, so it would bug me if I remember seeing something and my computer canât find it.
Thereâs a simple reason all the current hashes end in a or q: the hash is 256 bits, the base32 encoding chops that into groups of 5 bits, and 256 isnât divisible by 5. The last character of the base32 encoding just has that left-over single bit (256 mod 5 = 1).
So I agree with #3 below, but do you have a source for #1, #2 or #4? I would expect any lack of variability in any part of a hash functionâs output would make it more vulnerable to attacks, so designers of hash functions would want to make the whole output vary as much as possible.
Other than the divisible-by-5 thing, my current intuition is it doesnât matter what part you take.
Hash Structure: Hashes are typically designed so that their outputs have specific statistical properties. The first few characters often have more entropy or variability, meaning they are less likely to have patterns. The last characters may not maintain this randomness, especially if the encoding method has a tendency to produce less varied endings.
Collision Resistance: When using hashes, the goal is to minimize the risk of collisions (different inputs producing the same output). By using the first few characters, you leverage the full distribution of the hash. The last characters may not distribute in the same way, potentially increasing the likelihood of collisions.
Encoding Characteristics: Base32 encoding has a specific structure and padding that might influence the last characters more than the first. If the data being hashed is similar, the last characters may be more similar across different hashes.
Use Cases: In many applications (like generating unique identifiers), the beginning of the hash is often the most informative and varied. Relying on the end might reduce the uniqueness of generated identifiers, especially if a prefix has a specific context or meaning.
@aelaraji@aelaraji.com odd, I ran it under Ubuntu 24.04, and got the same result as @prologic@twtxt.net (which is on macOS), zq4fgq.
@prologic@twtxt.net I just realised the jenny also does what I want, as of latest commit. Simply use jenny --debug-feed <feed url>, and it will do what I wanted too!
@movq@www.uninformativ.de alright, fair, and interesting. I was expecting them to be all the same (format wise), but it doesnât matter, for sure, as it works just fine. Thanks!
I have noticed that twtxt timestamps differ. For example:
- @prologic@twtxt.net (and I assume any Yarn user)
2024-09-18T13:16:17Z
- @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org
2024-09-17T21:15:00+02:00
- @aelaraji@aelaraji.com (and @movq@www.uninformativ.de, and me)
2024-09-18T05:43:13+00:00
So, which is right, or best?
I came across this Gallery Theme for Hugo, and @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org immediately came to mind. I think it would be a very fitting theme to use for all your photos, Lyse!
@prologic@twtxt.net the real conclusion is, is it going to change, to what, and when? :-P
@prologic@twtxt.net yes, that would work, except there is no debug command on my local yarnc. Are you talking about a potential future implementation here?
@prologic@twtxt.net I saw those, yes. I tried using yarnc, and it would work for a simple twtxt. Now, for a more convoluted one it truly becomes a nightmare using that tool for the job. I know there are talks about changing this hash, so this might be a moot point right now, but it would be nice to have a tool that:
- Would calculate the hash of a twtxt in a file.
- Would calculate all hashes on a
twtxt.txt(local and remote).
Again, something lovely to have after any looming changes occur.
@aelaraji@aelaraji.com Woah! Overkill, but nicely laid out. Hey, the ultimate goal is for it to work, so, mission accomplished! :-)
Could someone knowledgable reply with the steps a grandpa will take to calculate the hash of a twtxt from the CLI, using out-of-the-box tools? I swear I read about it somewhere, but canât find it.
@prologic@twtxt.net woot! Fast! I think you need to change your nick to âfastlogicâ instead. :-D
Thank you for adding the feature so fast, @prologic@twtxt.net! Look at how beautiful this one renders now. Oh my!
@prologic@twtxt.net sorry but nope. Neither jenny, nor yarnd supports it at all. This was treated as a thread because I picked one of @falsifian@www.falsifian.orgâs twtxts (with the âold subjectâ), and replied to it (hence starting the thread).
Oh, and you canât imagine the level of control I am commandeering by restraining me from editing that previous âmissing-one-backtickâ twtxt. LOL!
@aelaraji@aelaraji.com this is the little script I am using on my publish_command:
#!/usr/bin/env bash
twtxt2html -t "Quark's twtxt feed" /var/www/sites/ferengi.one/twtxt.txt > /var/www/sites/ferengi.one/index.html
I named it twtxtit. :-)
@prologic@twtxt.net based on @falsifian@www.falsifian.orgâs findings, I donât believe this is quite accurate.
âyarnd
(_at least_) doesn't support creating such a custom TwtSubject, but it will reply and respect and thread one if one was constructed."
@falsifian@www.falsifian.org yes, that happened around 2 years ago, on commit 5923078ea5.
@quark@ferengi.one It looks like the part about traditional topics has been removed from that page. Here is an old version that mentions it: https://web.archive.org/web/20221211165458/https://dev.twtxt.net/doc/twtsubjectextension.html . Still, I donât see any description of what is actually allowed between the parentheses. May be worth noting that twtxt.net is displaying the twts with the subject stripped, so some piece of code is recognizing it as a subject (or, at least, something to be removed).
Opened a couple of issues on twtxt2html. Maybe @prologic@twtxt.net will get to them after he has completed his luxurious recharging cycle. LOL.
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org fully agree. I have never been a fan of relative times to begin with, so that one will go away, foh sho! :-D
@falsifian@www.falsifian.org based on Twt Subject Extension, your subject is invalid. You can have custom subjects, that is, not a valid hash, but you simply canât put anything, and expect it to be treated as a TwtSubject, me thinks.
Hmm, but yarnd also isnât showing these twts as being part of a thread. @prologic@twtxt.net you said yarnd respects customs subjects. Shouldnât these twts count as having a custom subject, and get threaded together?
yarnd just doesnât render the subject. Fair enough. Itâs (replyto http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt 2024-09-15T12:50:17Z), and if you donât want to go on a hunt, the twt hash is weadxga: https://twtxt.net/twt/weadxga
@sorenpeter@darch.dk I like this idea. Just for fun, Iâm using a variant in this twt. (Also because Iâm curious how it non-hash subjects appear in jenny and yarn.)
URLs can contain commas so I suggest a different character to separate the url from the date. Is this twt Iâve used space (also after âreplytoâ, for symmetry).
I think this solves:
- Changing feed identities: although @mckinley@twtxt.net points out URLs can change, I think this syntax should be okay as long as the feed at that URL can be fetched, and as long as the current canonical URL for the feed lists this one as an alternate.
- editing, if you donât care about message integrity
- finding the root of a thread, if youâre not following the author
An optional hash could be added if message integrity is desired. (E.g. if you donât trust the feed author not to make a misleading edit.) Other recent suggestions about how to deal with edits and hashes might be applicable then.
People publishing multiple twts per second should include sub-second precision in their timestamps. As you suggested, the timestamp could just be copied verbatim.
@prologic@twtxt.net I have some ideas:
- Add smartypants rendering, just like Yarn has.
- Add the ability to create individual twtxts, each named after their hash.
- Fix the formatting of the help. :-P
Woot, yes! It works perfectly. By the time you see my twtxt, it is already at the main Ferengi.one website.
@bender@twtxt.net thatâs not your change, silly robot, it is mine! LOL. I am finding @prologic@twtxt.netâs tool handy to refer to previous posts (as reference, for example).
@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Sorry, I donât think I ever had charset=utf8. I just noticed that a few days ago. OpenBSDâs httpd might not support including a parameter with the mime type, unfortunately. Iâm going to look into it.
@movq@www.uninformativ.de I didnât run the command as you recommended, but, I wiped things once more, and ran jenny -f, and this time got:
david@arrakis:~$ jenny -f
Fetching archived feed https://anthony.buc.ci/user/abucci/twtxt.txt/1 (configured as abucci, https://anthony.buc.ci/user/abucci/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://darch.dk/twtxt-archive.txt (configured as soren, https://darch.dk/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2024-04-21_6v47cua.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/1 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2022-12-21_2us6qbq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/2 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2022-01-14_ew5gzca.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/3 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-12-23_f6y65bq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/4 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-12-04_e4x7yba.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/5 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-11.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-11-18_42tjxba.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/6 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-10.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-11-08_i2wnvaa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-09.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-10-23_kvwn5oa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-08.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-10-11_mljudaa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-07.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-09-22_5mkqwua.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-06.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-07-27_xcnzmlq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-05.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-06-16_mtedqya.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-04-29_z7lvzja.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-03-19_xjabvhq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-02-24_te4a6oa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-01-26_qxgigma.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2020-12-13_igfnala.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-11.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-10.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-09.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-08.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-07.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-06.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-05.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-11.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-10.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-09.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-08.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-07.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-06.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-05.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2020-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Notice that @prologic@twtxt.netâs /6 is there. I found the twtxt then. Kind of odd it didnât show before.
Maybe Iâm being a bit too purist/minimalistic here. As I said before (in one of the 1372739 posts on this topic â or maybe I didnât even send that twt, I donât remember đ ), I never really liked hashes to begin with. They arenât super hard to implement but they are kind of against the beauty of the original twtxt â because you need special client support for them. Itâs not something that you could write manually in your
twtxt.txtfile. With @sorenpeter@darch.dkâs proposal, though, that would be possible.
Tangentially related, I was a bit disappointed to learn that the twt subject extension is now never used except with hashes. Manually-written subjects sounded so beautifully ad-hoc and organic as a way to disambiguate replies. Maybe Iâll try it some time just for fun.
(#w4chkna) @falsifian@www.falsifian.org You mean the idea of being able to inline
# url =changes in your feed?
Yes, that one. But @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org pointed out suffers a compatibility issue, since currently the first listed url is used for hashing, not the last. Unless your feed is in reverse chronological order. Heh, I guess another metadata field could indicate which version to use.
Or maybe url changes could somehow be combined with the archive feeds extension? Could the url metadata field be local to each archive file, so that to switch to a new url all you need to do is archive everything youâve got and start a new file at the new url?
I donât think itâs that likely my feed url will change.
@movq@www.uninformativ.de I did the same. jenny fetches archives, yes, but that twtxt I am referring about is no longer. If you fetch it, but I donât, there is certainly something going onâŚ
@movq@www.uninformativ.de I did started from scratch, today. I using am commit 6e8ce5afdabd5eac22eae4275407b3bd2a167daf (HEAD -> main, origin/main, origin/HEAD), I keep myself up-to-date, LOL. Still, that specific twtxt (o6dsrga) is no longer.