@prologic@twtxt.net sorry but nope. Neither jenny, nor yarnd supports it at all. This was treated as a thread because I picked one of @falsifian@www.falsifian.org’s twtxts (with the “old subject”), and replied to it (hence starting the thread).

Oh, and you can’t imagine the level of control I am commandeering by restraining me from editing that previous “missing-one-backtick” twtxt. LOL!

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com this is the little script I am using on my publish_command:

#!/usr/bin/env bash

twtxt2html -t "Quark's twtxt feed" /var/www/sites/ferengi.one/twtxt.txt > /var/www/sites/ferengi.one/index.html

I named it twtxtit. :-)

@prologic@twtxt.net based on @falsifian@www.falsifian.org’s findings, I don’t believe this is quite accurate.

“yarnd(_at least_) doesn't support creating such a custom TwtSubject, but it will reply and respect and thread one if one was constructed."

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org yes, that happened around 2 years ago, on commit 5923078ea5.

@quark@ferengi.one It looks like the part about traditional topics has been removed from that page. Here is an old version that mentions it: https://web.archive.org/web/20221211165458/https://dev.twtxt.net/doc/twtsubjectextension.html . Still, I don’t see any description of what is actually allowed between the parentheses. May be worth noting that twtxt.net is displaying the twts with the subject stripped, so some piece of code is recognizing it as a subject (or, at least, something to be removed).

Opened a couple of issues on twtxt2html. Maybe @prologic@twtxt.net will get to them after he has completed his luxurious recharging cycle. LOL.

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org fully agree. I have never been a fan of relative times to begin with, so that one will go away, foh sho! :-D

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org based on Twt Subject Extension, your subject is invalid. You can have custom subjects, that is, not a valid hash, but you simply can’t put anything, and expect it to be treated as a TwtSubject, me thinks.

Hmm, but yarnd also isn’t showing these twts as being part of a thread. @prologic@twtxt.net you said yarnd respects customs subjects. Shouldn’t these twts count as having a custom subject, and get threaded together?

yarnd just doesn’t render the subject. Fair enough. It’s (replyto http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt 2024-09-15T12:50:17Z), and if you don’t want to go on a hunt, the twt hash is weadxga: https://twtxt.net/twt/weadxga

@sorenpeter@darch.dk I like this idea. Just for fun, I’m using a variant in this twt. (Also because I’m curious how it non-hash subjects appear in jenny and yarn.)

URLs can contain commas so I suggest a different character to separate the url from the date. Is this twt I’ve used space (also after “replyto”, for symmetry).

I think this solves:

• Changing feed identities: although @mckinley@twtxt.net points out URLs can change, I think this syntax should be okay as long as the feed at that URL can be fetched, and as long as the current canonical URL for the feed lists this one as an alternate.
  
• editing, if you don’t care about message integrity
  
• finding the root of a thread, if you’re not following the author
  

An optional hash could be added if message integrity is desired. (E.g. if you don’t trust the feed author not to make a misleading edit.) Other recent suggestions about how to deal with edits and hashes might be applicable then.

People publishing multiple twts per second should include sub-second precision in their timestamps. As you suggested, the timestamp could just be copied verbatim.

@prologic@twtxt.net I have some ideas:

• Add smartypants rendering, just like Yarn has.
  
• Add the ability to create individual twtxts, each named after their hash.
  
• Fix the formatting of the help. :-P

Woot, yes! It works perfectly. By the time you see my twtxt, it is already at the main Ferengi.one website.

@bender@twtxt.net that’s not your change, silly robot, it is mine! LOL. I am finding @prologic@twtxt.net’s tool handy to refer to previous posts (as reference, for example).

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Sorry, I don’t think I ever had charset=utf8. I just noticed that a few days ago. OpenBSD’s httpd might not support including a parameter with the mime type, unfortunately. I’m going to look into it.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I didn’t run the command as you recommended, but, I wiped things once more, and ran jenny -f, and this time got:

david@arrakis:~$ jenny -f
Fetching archived feed https://anthony.buc.ci/user/abucci/twtxt.txt/1 (configured as abucci, https://anthony.buc.ci/user/abucci/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://darch.dk/twtxt-archive.txt (configured as soren, https://darch.dk/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2024-04-21_6v47cua.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/1 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2022-12-21_2us6qbq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/2 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2022-01-14_ew5gzca.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/3 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2024-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-12-23_f6y65bq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/4 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-12-04_e4x7yba.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/5 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-11.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-11-18_42tjxba.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/6 (configured as prologic, https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-10.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-11-08_i2wnvaa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-09.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-10-23_kvwn5oa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-08.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-10-11_mljudaa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-07.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-09-22_5mkqwua.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-06.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-07-27_xcnzmlq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-05.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-06-16_mtedqya.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-04-29_z7lvzja.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-03-19_xjabvhq.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-02-24_te4a6oa.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2023-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2021-01-26_qxgigma.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt-old_2020-12-13_igfnala.txt (configured as movq, https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-11.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-10.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-09.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-08.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-07.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-06.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-05.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2022-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-11.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-10.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-09.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-08.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-07.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-06.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-05.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-04.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-03.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-02.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2021-01.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)
Fetching archived feed https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt-2020-12.txt (configured as lyse, https://lyse.isobeef.org/twtxt.txt)

Notice that @prologic@twtxt.net’s /6 is there. I found the twtxt then. Kind of odd it didn’t show before.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de

Maybe I’m being a bit too purist/minimalistic here. As I said before (in one of the 1372739 posts on this topic – or maybe I didn’t even send that twt, I don’t remember 😅), I never really liked hashes to begin with. They aren’t super hard to implement but they are kind of against the beauty of the original twtxt – because you need special client support for them. It’s not something that you could write manually in your twtxt.txt file. With @sorenpeter@darch.dk’s proposal, though, that would be possible.

Tangentially related, I was a bit disappointed to learn that the twt subject extension is now never used except with hashes. Manually-written subjects sounded so beautifully ad-hoc and organic as a way to disambiguate replies. Maybe I’ll try it some time just for fun.

@prologic@twtxt.net

(#w4chkna) @falsifian@www.falsifian.org You mean the idea of being able to inline # url = changes in your feed?

Yes, that one. But @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org pointed out suffers a compatibility issue, since currently the first listed url is used for hashing, not the last. Unless your feed is in reverse chronological order. Heh, I guess another metadata field could indicate which version to use.

Or maybe url changes could somehow be combined with the archive feeds extension? Could the url metadata field be local to each archive file, so that to switch to a new url all you need to do is archive everything you’ve got and start a new file at the new url?

I don’t think it’s that likely my feed url will change.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I did the same. jenny fetches archives, yes, but that twtxt I am referring about is no longer. If you fetch it, but I don’t, there is certainly something going on…

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I did started from scratch, today. I using am commit 6e8ce5afdabd5eac22eae4275407b3bd2a167daf (HEAD -> main, origin/main, origin/HEAD), I keep myself up-to-date, LOL. Still, that specific twtxt (o6dsrga) is no longer.

After re-fetching feeds, the earliest twtxt I have from you is n7gavoa.

@prologic@twtxt.net, your first twtxt ever was o6dsrga, but I can’t find the source for it (the raw file). I reset everything, and re-fetched fresh feeds (allegedly including archives). Where is it?

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I figured it will be something like this, yet, you were able to reply just fine, and I wasn’t. Looking at your twtxt.txt I see this line:

2024-09-16T17:37:14+00:00	(#o6dsrga) @<prologic https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt>

@<quark https://ferengi.one/twtxt.txt> This is what I get. 🤔

Which is using the right hash. Mine, on the other hand, when I replied to the original, old style message (Message-Id: <o6dsrga>), looks like this:

2024-09-16T16:42:27+00:00	(#o) @<prologic https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt> this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P

What did you do to make yours work? I simply went to the oldest @prologic@twtxt.net’s entry on my Maildir, and replied to it (jenny set the reply-to hash to #o, even though the Message-Id is o6dsrga). Since jenny can’t fetch archived twtxts, how could I go to re-fetch everything? And, most importantly, would re-fetching fix the Message-Id:?

@prologic@twtxt.net you will always be replying to OP - that is what the twthash is a shorthand for, it it not?!

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I’m glad you like it. A mention (@<movq https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt>) is also long, but we live with it anyway. In a way a replyto: is just a mention of a twt instead of a feed/person. Maybe we chould even model the syntax for replies on mentions: (#<2024-09-17T08:39:18Z https://www.eksempel.dk/twtxt.txt>) ?!

@mckinley@twtxt.net Yes, changing domains is be a problem if you tie your identity to an https url. But I also worry about being stuck with a key I can’t rotate. Whatever gets used, it would be nice to be able to rotate identities. I like @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org’s idea for that.

This is how my original message shows up on jenny:

From: quark <quark>
Subject: (#o) @prologic this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:42:27 -0400
Message-Id: <k7imvia@twtxt>
X-twtxt-feed-url: https://ferengi.one/twtxt.txt

(#o) @<prologic https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt> this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P

Hmm… I replied to this message:

From: prologic <prologic>
Subject: Hello World! 😊
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 08:39:52 -0400
Message-Id: <o6dsrga>
X-twtxt-feed-url: https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt

Hello World! 😊

And see how the hash shows… Is it because that hash isn’t longer used?

@prologic@twtxt.net this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P

@movq@www.uninformativ.de we can shorten it by six characters, with (r:https://...). 😅

@prologic@twtxt.net I am going to light some candles this weekend to “La Virgen de Macarena” to make it happen! :-D

@prologic@twtxt.net you need to catch up with my twtxts, mate. :-P

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com grats! See how much trouble an edited twtxt can cause? Wish there was a simpler solution. Alas, I don’t have much hope.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I can have more than one Yarn, correct? Like:

"yarn_pods_for_discovery": ["https://twtxt.net", "https://txt.sour.is"],

I mean, this: https://darch.dk/timeline/replies?url=http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com make sense, probably. The twtxt was already on my Maildir, that’s why I can fetch it. I fetch every 3 minutes (sssh, don’t tell anyone!). LOL!

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com check “Replies”. :-D

More:

Subject: The [tag URI scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_URI_scheme) looks interesting. I like that it human read- and writable. And since we already got the timestamp in the twtxt.txt it would be
        somewhat trivial to parse. But there are still the issue with what the name/id should be... Maybe it doesn't have to bee that stick? Instead of using `tag:` as the prefix/protocol, it would more it clear
        what we are talking about by using `in-reply-to:` (https://indieweb.org/in-reply-to) or `replyto:` similar to `mailto:` 1. `(reply:sorenpeter@darch.dk,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)' 2.
        `(in-reply-to:darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)' 2. `(replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)' I know it's longer that 7-11 characters, but it's self-explaining when looking at the
        twtxt.txt in the raw, and the cases above can all be caught with this regex: `\([\w-]*reply[\w-]*\:` Is this something that would work?

Subject: The [tag URI scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_URI_scheme) looks interesting. I like that it human read- and writable. And since we already got the timestamp in the twtxt.txt it would be
        somewhat trivial to parse. But there are still the issue with what the name/id should be... Maybe it doesn't have to bee that stick? Instead of using `tag:` as the prefix/protocol, it would more it clear
        what we are talking about by using `in-reply-to:` (https://indieweb.org/in-reply-to) or `replyto:` similar to `mailto:` 1. `(reply:sorenpeter@darch.dk,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)` 2.
        `(in-reply-to:darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)` 3. `(replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)` I know it's longer that 7-11 characters, but it's self-explaining when looking at the
        twtxt.txt in the raw, and the cases above can all be caught with this regex: `\([\w-]*reply[\w-]*\:` Is this something that would work?

Notice the difference? Soren edited, and broke everything.

See:

Message-Id: <hns535a@twtxt>
X-twtxt-feed-url: https://darch.dk/twtxt.txt
In-Reply-To: <pvju5cq@twtxt>

And

Message-Id: <weadxga@twtxt>
X-twtxt-feed-url: http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt
In-Reply-To: <pvju5cq@twtxt>

Two feed URLs, one HTTPS, the other HTTP.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com no, it is not just you. Do fetch the parent with jenny, and you will see there are two messages with different hash. Soren did something funky, for sure.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com hmm, I see all of your twtxts just fine. Now, that’s a puzzle!

@mckinley@twtxt.net Thanks for the feedback.

1. Yeah I agrees that nick sound not be part of syntax. Any valid URL to a twtxt.txt-file should be enough and is more clear, so it is not confused with a email (one of the the issues with webfinger and fedivese handles)
   
2. I think any valid URL would work, since we are not bound to look for exact matches. Accepting both http and https as well as a gemni and gophe could all work as long as the path to the twtxt.txt is the same.
   
3. My idea is that you quote the timestamp as it is in the original twtxt.txt that you are referring to, so you can do it by simply copy/pasting. Also what are the change that the same human will make two different posts within the same second?!
   

Regarding the whole cryptographic keys for identity, to me it seems like an unnecessary layer of complexity. If you move to a new house or city you tell people that you moved - you can do the same in a twtxt.txt. Just post something like “I move to this new URL, please follow me there!” I did that with my feeds at least twice, and you guys still seem to read my posts:)

The tag URI scheme looks interesting. I like that it human read- and writable. And since we already got the timestamp in the twtxt.txt it would be somewhat trivial to parse. But there are still the issue with what the name/id should be… Maybe it doesn’t have to bee that stick?

Instead of using tag: as the prefix/protocol, it would more it clear what we are talking about by using in-reply-to: (https://indieweb.org/in-reply-to) or replyto: similar to mailto:

1. (reply:sorenpeter@darch.dk,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)
   
2. (in-reply-to:darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)
   
3. (replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)
   

I know it’s longer that 7-11 characters, but it’s self-explaining when looking at the twtxt.txt in the raw, and the cases above can all be caught with this regex: \([\w-]*reply[\w-]*\:

Is this something that would work?

Thank you @aelaraji@aelaraji.com, I’m glad you like it. I use PHP because it’s everywhere on cheap hosting and no need for the user to log into a terminal to setup it up. Timeline is not mean to be use locally. For that I think something like twtxt2html is a better fit. (and happy to see you using simple.css on you new log page;)

@prologic@twtxt.net Brute force. I just hashed a bunch of versions of both tweets until I found a collision.

I mostly just wanted an excuse to write the program. I don’t know how I feel about actually using super-long hashes; could make the twts annoying to read if you prefer to view them untransformed.

@prologic@twtxt.net earlier you suggested extending hashes to 11 characters, but here’s an argument that they should be even longer than that.

Imagine I found this twt one day at https://example.com/twtxt.txt :

2024-09-14T22:00Z Useful backup command: rsync -a “$HOME” /mnt/backup

Image

and I responded with “(#5dgoirqemeq) Thanks for the tip!”. Then I’ve endorsed the twt, but it could latter get changed to

2024-09-14T22:00Z Useful backup command: rm -rf /some_important_directory

Image

which also has an 11-character base32 hash of 5dgoirqemeq. (I’m using the existing hashing method with https://example.com/twtxt.txt as the feed url, but I’m taking 11 characters instead of 7 from the end of the base32 encoding.)

That’s what I meant by “spoofing” in an earlier twt.

I don’t know if preventing this sort of attack should be a goal, but if it is, the number of bits in the hash should be at least two times log2(number of attempts we want to defend against), where the “two times” is because of the birthday paradox.

Side note: current hashes always end with “a” or “q”, which is a bit wasteful. Maybe we should take the first N characters of the base32 encoding instead of the last N.

Code I used for the above example: https://fossil.falsifian.org/misc/file?name=src/twt_collision/find_collision.c
I only needed to compute 43394987 hashes to find it.

@prx@si3t.ch I haven’t messed with rdomains, but still it might help if you included the command that produced that error (and whether you ran it as root).

@prologic@twtxt.net

They’re in Section 6:

• Receiver should adopt UDP GRO. (Something about saving CPU processing UDP packets; I’m a but fuzzy about it.) And they have suggestions for making GRO more useful for QUIC.

• Some other receiver-side suggestions: “sending delayed QUICK ACKs”; “using recvmsg to read multiple UDF packets in a single system call”.

• Use multiple threads when receiving large files.

@mckinley@twtxt.net

HTTPS is supposed to do [verification] anyway.

TLS provides verification that nobody is tampering with or snooping on your connection to a server. It doesn’t, for example, verify that a file downloaded from server A is from the same entity as the one from server B.

I was confused by this response for a while, but now I think I understand what you’re getting at. You are pointing out that with signed feeds, I can verify the authenticity of a feed without accessing the original server, whereas with HTTPS I can’t verify a feed unless I download it myself from the origin server. Is that right?

I.e. if the HTTPS origin server is online and I don’t mind taking the time and bandwidth to contact it, then perhaps signed feeds offer no advantage, but if the origin server might not be online, or I want to download a big archive of lots of feeds at once without contacting each server individually, then I need signed feeds.

feed locations [being] URLs gives some flexibility

It does give flexibility, but perhaps we should have made them URIs instead for even more flexibility. Then, you could use a tag URI, urn:uuid:*, or a regular old URL if you wanted to. The spec seems to indicate that the url tag should be a working URL that clients can use to find a copy of the feed, optionally at multiple locations. I’m not very familiar with IP{F,N}S but if it ensures you own an identifier forever and that identifier points to a current copy of your feed, it could be a great way to fix it on an individual basis without breaking any specs :)

I’m also not very familiar with IPFS or IPNS.

I haven’t been following the other twts about signatures carefully. I just hope whatever you smart people come up with will be backwards-compatible so it still works if I’m too lazy to change how I publish my feed :-)